How about a cup of coffee?

As is recommended in the video, it can be a good idea to call a truce on the issues and sit down for lunch or a cup of coffee. We spend so much time demonizing each other that we forget that we can work together too. The speaker in the video says lunch, but I like coffee better. I feel like I can talk to people more at coffee than lunch, but maybe it’s because I focus too much on my food at lunch…..

Yes, there are lots of feminists and MRA’s that live to mud-sling, but there are many of us who want to actually work for change. Hopefully, there are more of us who want actual change than those who do all the shouting and attention grabbing. We get caught up and defensive because of the mud-slingers and forget that we might be on the same side. The real enemy is complacency, isn’t it? Aren’t we really trying to fight a system that doesn’t allow people to be themselves and causes our genitalia to determine our worth and the value we are to society? Aren’t we really all just opposing a system that says that you have to do everything that other people with your same genitalia have done?

How about we sit down, have a cup of coffee and get to know each other? How about we have a conversation that doesn’t involve who shot first or last or most? How about we get together and agree that we want a relatively similar end, even if we don’t want to take the same path to get there? I’d rather have allies and champions who help me get the complacent part of the world to realize that we are all biased in some way and there’s more to people than their sex or gender. I’d rather be an ally and champion of others as well.

Do we have to always be fighting each other? I think peace and cooperation among groups that want gender equality could be a powerful step on a more progressive road than any of us are on individually.

So how about that cup of coffee?

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10 thoughts on “How about a cup of coffee?

  1. There is one major flaw. Feminists and MRA don’t want the same thing. We are not taking different paths to the same ends. MRA want gender equality on ALL fronts, feminists want female superiority in all things good and all things bad to be exclusively the domain of men.

    We can’t fix Intimate partner violence by ignoring the 90% of the time when women are a violent partner in domestic violence and exclusively focusing on “Violence against women”. (DV break down is 75% mutual combat 10% men beating passive wives and 15% wives beating passive men, so in 90% of violent relationships the woman is a violent partner)

    We can’t end rape by defining female perpetrated rape as “not rape”.

    We can’t close the accountability gap with out addressing the disparities in homelessness, prison populations and criminal culpability.

    Feminism is fighting to narrow the gender gap in Senate seats, but it is also trying to grow the much larger gap in prision populations.

    Feminism defines “equality” as women are more represented, not as equally represented. Women outnumber men on University campuses by a larger margin than men outnumbered women when Title IX was passed, but there is no push for affirmative action for men.

    It would be great to find a feminist capable of having a reasonable discussion over a cup of coffee, but the very foundation of feminist theory, The Patriarchy, is a “they shot first” argument to justify female superiority.

    • Feminists do not want female superiority. Some radicals may say such things, but there exists a significant sect that wants actual equality. Our radicals, like yours, get more attention, which is unfortunate. And it doesnt help anyone to say that you must fix one thing before another. Different people work on different parts of the problem at the same time. That’s like saying we can’t have advocates for positive body image at the same time as people working overseas to liberate trafficking victims of all genders.

      • Feminists don’t want female superiority, but that is the cause of feminism. It’s not Just the radicals, it’s the mainstream and powerful feminists.

        Is the UN and it’s “He for She” campaign a bunch of radical feminists? It is a campaign for female superiority.

        Is Mary Koss, founder of Miss Magazine, the radical fringe of feminism? Her input to the CDC lead to them defining female perpetrated rape as “not rape”.

        Is the White House filled with the radical fringe of feminists? Staffers kept removing Warren Farrel’s pitch to start a counsel on men and boys from the President’s itinerary.

        Feminists, many/most feminists actively oppose changes to title IX directed to helping young men. This is female superiority, advocating that women outnumbering men 2:1 on campus means there aren’t enough women.

        It is possible to fix more than one thing at a time, but you don’t fix the gender inequality by making it worse. Part of fixing a problem is most decidedly stopping it from getting worse.

        • While I can agree on the male rape problem, the rest seem to imply that you think females are already superior. These programs are created to help the disproportionate amount of women suffering globally. There’s more to gender issues then what argue about in the West. As far as colleges go, that still doesnt mean that men who have less education won’t be chosen over these women and the women won’t be paid less when they are. How about starting a campaign for boys rather than complain that no one else has.

          • Paris, Rekeyovek(Iceland), New York, these are western cities. These are the places rallies for “He for She” are being held. That the more abused group, men, should “man up” and take even more abuse to protect the minority of victims is most decidedly female superiority.

            That there exists a White House Councle on Women and Girls to address income inequalities, but not a White House Consle on Men and Boys to address educational attainment and the prison pipeline is most decidedly female superiority.

            That only 3% of the prison population is female is most decidedly female superiority.

            Women outnumbering men 2:1 on campuses is most decidedly female superiority.

            At what point will it become clear to you that feminism is arguing for female superiority? Clearly equality in education IS NOT what feminists are arguing for, your not. Will 5:1 be “equality”. Will 10:1? Will “equality” be achieved when men are excluded from higher education? When men are excluded from any education?

            It is not all peaches and cream for women, but there do exist a great many examples of female superiority. While there isn’t a “The Matriarchy”, arguing to expand these superiority and remove the “male privilege” men have isn’t a recipe for gender equality. It is arguing there should be no downside to being female and no upside to being male. This is female superiority.

            A great many people have started or tried to start campaigns for Men and Boys only to be shut down harassed and threatened. My complaint isn’t that no one else has started Male-Positive campaigns, but that these campaigns are actively opposed by feminists.

            To tie this back into the topic at hand, while both MRA and Feminists use the word equality to describe our goals the vision of what this means is radically and fundamentally different. We are not pursuing the same goals.

          • Lots of women’s campaigns are still harrassed, threatened and shut down. Sadly, it comes with the territory.
            None of this is female superiority but efforts to correct what is still mald superiority. If yiu fail to see that there is still male superiority as a general rule, than this conversation is clearly not going to go anywhere useful.
            And HeForShe asks men to help bring women up to their level in society because we are not even close to your level of respect, autonomy or opportunity in any society. Denying this fact is a big reason why feminists have a hard time talking to MRAs in general.

          • I want equality, but the question is what do each of us mean by equality. We have very different understandings of what equality will look like because we have very different understandings of what now looks like.

            HeForShe doesn’t ask men to bring women up to their level of respect, autonomy or opportunity. HeForShe asks men to reduce women’s autonomy and opportunity, lowering respect for women. HeForShe asks men to do a better job of filling the outdated regressive and repressive gender role of men of provider and protector.

            Men do have more respect, autonomy and opportunity than women. Women are MUCH MUCH safer than men are. HeForShe asks men to provide more safety to women, this comes at a cost, autonomy and opportunity for women. HeForShe is doing the exact opposite of what you think it is.

            Men do have more respect autonomy and opportunity in society than women do. This is not male superiority. Men are also disposable with no inherent value. Men have more autonomy and opportunity meaning we have both more chances to succeed and more chances to fail. When we fail we just get brushed aside like so much human refuse and ignored. There is no “The Patriarchy”, we males are not treated superior. Denying this fact is a big reason why MRA have a hard time talking to feminists in general.

            You didn’t answer my question on equality. Given outnumbering men at University by 2:1 isn’t “equal” enough for you what will be “equal” 10:1? 100:1? Total exclusion of males will be “equality”?

          • Women are no way safer than men. Women are regularly beaten and raped for refusing the sexual and romantic advances of men. HeforShe asks that men take responsibility for this in both their own actions and as bystanders. It acknowledges that there are countless situations where women fear for the safety and don’t speak up and the men in the room could easily do so on their behalf. I can’t believe you even think that women are safer than men.
            As far as the college statistic goes, it’s not like there isn’t already work being done to balance it back out. It was determined a few years ago that the majority reason for men dropping out was financial obligation and reducing that has been a major concern that was even a part of the State of the Union just the other day. The same study showed that women were more likely to take on the extra debt because of our far greater penalty in pay for not graduating. While this may not actually balance things out, it took no time at all to be researched and addressed. It may not have been publicized as a gender-based strategy, but the effect is likely to do just that.
            Equality happens in more sphere than education and most campaigns for the education of girls is targeted at the developing countries where they rarely finish elementary school and even those campaigns do include boys such as that of both our recent Nobel Laureates.
            For the record, equality looks like an equal amount of opportunity and autonomy to all genders (I’m not one to exclude non-binary and trans) in ALL spheres of life, which does come out to about equal numbers of all things, such as at-home parents, single parents, active duty military, management, menial work, college graduates, getting catcalled on the street, harrassed for refusing sexual advances, and everywhere else. I’m also not so delusional, before you accuse me as you seem want to do, as to assume that equality means a beautiful and wonderful state of being for everyone. I’ll settle for men being as likely to be harassed or mistreated as women, non-binary, and trans people are.
            That being said, I’ve finished my cup of coffee now, so I’m going to leave the conversation.

          • Women are way safer than men. Men are more often the victims of every form of violence from simple assault to domestic violence, even rape. Men are more often the victims of every form of violence.

            For 30 years now women have outnumbered men on University campuses. For 30 years now the gender gap has been growing. If attempts to correct this have been made under the guise of something else, they have failed miserably. Obama’s initiative to make community college free to student’s won’t correct this gap. If more male students sign up than female students there will be outrage over discrimination against women. Community Colleges will limit male enrollment to the level of female interest to maintain equal outcomes. Equal Opportunities be damned. Just as we see with sports under Title IX.

            Education in the third world is problematic. I will take another 14 years before all males have access to education. But because it will take 16 years before all females have access to education this is a “Women’s Issue”. That two year gap isn’t whats talked about, the 16 years to make education available is. Even if women currently had better access to education than men do in the third world, the issue would still be the 12 years until all women have access not the 14 years till men do.

            We agree on the first half of what equality means. Equality does look like an equal amount of opportunity and autonomy to all genders (when talking about broad sweeping generalizations of “men” and “women”, bothering to include non-bianary individuals is simply wasting words) in ALL spheres of life. This DOES NOT come out to about equal numbers of all things. Men and women are not the same and these differences are more than skin deep, these differences will lead to different outcomes with the same opportunities.

            Also, men are more likely to be harassed or mistreated than women already. The difference is men are expected to “MAN UP” and take it while fetching the fainting couch for the poor frail woman getting lesser mistreatment.

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